Pang: What other projects was Hovey-Kelley working on at the time?
Sachs: Hovey-Kelley's client base was rather eclectic around 1980. It ranged from our work with Apple on the Apple III, the Lisa keyboard, and a fair amount of the Macintosh; to some laser scanning devices for companies that were making reading machines for the blind that could scan a page of text; to a pressure gauge that could be mounted to a car tire, where you could just look at the valve and see if the tire was over-pressure or under pressure, to touch screen input terminals. Hovey-Kelley's reputation was developing as a company that could take abstract problems and come up with a solution, including the industrial design, mechanical design, software or electronic design, and enough documentation to get you into production. And it solved problems in a very creative way, and that reputation has built over time to where IDEO is today.